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Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: DonDK ()
Date: January 25, 2011 01:28PM

Im saddened that Conqueror is a game where antisemitism and racism is all around. And where those making the remarks in chat hides behind friends. Ive experienced the player "Best" keeping his antisemitic bullshit going in chat, and even though he knows people take offense of it, he continues, and even seems to be proud of it. Today when Attila kinda asked him to stop his remarks he was told to "stfu" or "go fuck himself" - cant remember which, but it was words to that affection. I guess it for some is too easy being a tough guy over the internet. When reminded that he could risk to get banned from the game, he indirectly let us know, that it wouldnt happen because him being friends with Hallali, who happens to be german like himself, who also happens to be moderator too. I really hope this kinda favoritism isn't going on!

Personally I refuse to play with Best because of his tough guy antisemitism, but others doesnt seem to mind it. I guess it is okay to behave like this in conqueror.

So far the score is:

Germany 1 Jews 0

Congratulations conqueror community. You can be proud of yourself.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Attila ()
Date: January 25, 2011 02:11PM

He said both :)

The bigger problem is indeed that the majority of the members are completely indifferent towards this behavior. The kid himself is probably just a somewhat troubled teenager, who's trying to score cheap points. But I would not turn this into a German-Jewish contest :) In fact german society as whole can hardly be called antisemitic these, except a few neo-nazis and certain recent immigrants, because of their cultural background. I was wondering to which of the 2 groups he belongs?

As I understood, Hallali would not tolerate this behavior, and I trust her word for that.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: DonDK ()
Date: January 25, 2011 02:48PM

I think you are right about the indifference, and I must say, that it is what frustrates me the most. Would be nice if the community as a group said no to such things.

We can all say a remark that had some unintended content that offends some, and that we regret when we are made aware of it - no one should be banned for such. The problem really occurs when people just keeps going and doesn't respect others afterwards. Attila made Best aware of his behavior, like I also made him aware of it, and we got told to bugger off.

Personally I don't know if I should despise or feel sorry for kids like Best - but I think I will lean towards the last, since he still have a lot to learn about the world. Maybe some day in historyclass it will dawn on him why racism and antisemitism is a wrong thing, that the world would be a better place without.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: -RIPPE- ()
Date: January 26, 2011 02:36AM

like attila said putting up this talking of one guy into a german-jewish conflict was a pretty weak one. if you write stuff like that you can hardly expect anyone to take you serious.

even if you wouldnt agree, i think the conqueror community is a pretty mature community that can handle cases like the one you described in a mature way, by stating "shut the fuck up!" and then ignoring people like these you described. if they really think antisemitic or racistic you can not change them by reason, especially not in the lobby of some obscure game in the www...

its an emotional problem in them.

i think you are so angry about them and the people that do not take up a stance, because you suffer of exactly the same problem. maybe you are not racistic or antisemitic but also struggle with the uncontrollable complexity of the world ("indifference","the world would be a better place") and the fear of conspiracy (moderators supporting antisemites). what you feel lacking is order, thats exactly what these guys feel too. thinking about this, blablablabla.... .... but then they will have to experience that god is no proper answer, because blablabla... ...the wish for a loving and daring father blablablabla.... ...and in the end all these memories will burn away when the sun will blow up before becoming a white dwarf.

i am pretty sure that your "better world" may be better for you, but my "better world" would be a much better world for me and for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2011 02:39AM by -RIPPE-.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: DonDK ()
Date: January 26, 2011 04:43AM

I agree I changed focus from topic with the Germany remark, and I apologize for that, so lets not use more energy on that.

About the topic. I don't agree with you about the community can handle it. That is what I have experienced. Problem is that people dont mind the antisemitism more than they like to play with them 2 seconds after those foolish remarks, and then it is me who stand out and are allowed to play a game with myself and some ai's. No Rippe, the community doesn't take responsibility or action towards antisemitism or racism. It is letting it prevail, and those being the victims of such are being frozen out - unless they will accept the racism and antisemitism - in my eyes it is wrong.

And that I fear a conspiracy? yes of course I do when I hear words about favoritism like that - and I truly hope that Hallali can confirm that is not the case!

If people want to be islamic, christian, non-believers, socialdemocrats or anarchists that I don't care about - as long as they respect other people and their beliefs. And now you will prolly say, that I don't respect theirs because I don't have tolerance for antisemitism and racism, but if the rules of conquerorgame is non-excisting, then why do we even have a moderator?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2011 04:44AM by DonDK.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Master ()
Date: January 26, 2011 04:47AM

The moderators (Hallali and me) and admins (Xuul Alexey) do not accept racism etc. and my experience is that the conqueror community doesn't either.
So there is no need to worry.

I actually banned a guy like Best about a year ago, and I won't hesitate if I see what u have just described (if I can remember how too).

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: LikeNoOthers ()
Date: January 26, 2011 05:52AM

I love how Conqueror seems to be discussing these big topics like racism and antisemitism. I, also, will not support anything like this, and i have spoken with Best about it.

To me it seems that Best isn't the very "best" at handling trolling, he gets very annoyed at Adriano, and apperently, handles this like any troll wants, by getting mad and cursing the troll. I am not trying to blame anyone here, merely point out how people react to certain situations, in this case, he says some bad things about Jews.

I have told him the situation, and told him to simply ignore Adriano, since what he is doing, is never the way you should behave.

I am also sure Hallali would first give him a warning, and then mute or something worse, no matter friendsship or nationality. Also, i remember the case Master is refering to, where a person deliberately badmouthed the jews, perhaps like Best, but not because he felt "attacked" by someone, like i believe Best do.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: -RIPPE- ()
Date: January 26, 2011 06:32AM

i think the main reason why we got moderators is to have someone online who can kick spammers. cuz the admins arent here 24/7 and spammers were quite annoying at some point.

dont get me wrong, i am not liberal to those who spread hate in any way, i am strongly against racism (antisemitism is a kind of racism to me) and many other isms, in fact these people deserve pity for their fucked up development and hard rules to keep up an acceptable society.

it was your approach to say that antisemitism and racism is all around conquereror that made me answer since i find the people playing this game much less racistic or antisemitistic than in any other online game i know (gran turismo 5/bad company 2).

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: MPehrsson ()
Date: January 26, 2011 07:36AM

true Rippe. this game is really not one of the worst online games with racism. expect for that guy Master banned I have only seen or heard of few players that shared their racistic outbreaks with the community.
That said it is still not acceptable that best is antisemitic but I hope that one guy will be the reason that you will play less or perhaps quit Conqueror for good in case he doesnt stop.

For some reason nazis is very popular in online games. Rippe mentioned gt 5 and bc2 but also in black ops I see lots of people who creates nazi crosses as their playercard.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Paars ()
Date: January 26, 2011 10:20AM

Oh man, I'm soooo gonna get banned one day

I really really dislike Racism, Hypocrits and those f*cking Indians.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: DonDK ()
Date: January 26, 2011 10:22AM

Maybe it is not one of the worst on the internet, but I wouldnt know since I play so few internet games. However it doesnt remove the problem. The community doesnt stand up against it more, than they are willing to look the other way, and play with those who make the antisemitic remarks. Those who stand up against it and say no, can go play a game for themselves. Thats why I think the community fails.

Maybe Best doesn't like Adriano, but I think it is irrelevant. Using remarks like "lieing jew" and other various words to that affection, and then later on standing by them when confronted, thats I dont think the community should accept.

It is easy to be a tough guy on the Internet.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: BAAL ()
Date: January 26, 2011 01:00PM

Short comment

Don is right

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Xi ()
Date: January 27, 2011 01:05AM

There is no law against not liking juice last I checked. I happen to hate the foreign juice, especially pomegranate. Pomegranate juice are not from Europe but from out in the Middle East somewhere, yet I see them more and more in respectable shops, even mixing with our superior European fruit like cranberry. I think it is disgusting and immoral, and pomegranate juice should definitely be kept away from our superior European fruit. They should sit in designated pomegranate juice areas in shops and wear a clear label showing that they are pomegranate juice so noone buys them by mistake.

I ask everyone to join my anti-juice rally this Saturday, a fun day for all the family but with a serious message. Bring all things associated with juice in your home such as juicers or homemade juice-making books, which will be flung on a bonfire while we sing traditional European fruit songs like "Apple, Apple above all".

Together we can send the pomegranate juice and their traitorous drinkers a firm message; This is our land with our own breakfast drinks and you are not welcome here!

Hail Pear!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2011 01:22AM by Xi.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: DonDK ()
Date: January 27, 2011 02:10AM

Xi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no law against not liking juice last I
> checked. I happen to hate the foreign juice,
> especially pomegranate. Pomegranate juice are not
> from Europe but from out in the Middle East
> somewhere, yet I see them more and more in
> respectable shops, even mixing with our superior
> European fruit like cranberry. I think it is
> disgusting and immoral, and pomegranate juice
> should definitely be kept away from our superior
> European fruit. They should sit in designated
> pomegranate juice areas in shops and wear a clear
> label showing that they are pomegranate juice so
> noone buys them by mistake.
>
> I ask everyone to join my anti-juice rally this
> Saturday, a fun day for all the family but with a
> serious message. Bring all things associated with
> juice in your home such as juicers or homemade
> juice-making books, which will be flung on a
> bonfire while we sing traditional European fruit
> songs like "Apple, Apple above all".
>
> Together we can send the pomegranate juice and
> their traitorous drinkers a firm message; This is
> our land with our own breakfast drinks and you are
> not welcome here!
>
> Hail Pear!

Good and intelligent story/allegory - spot on.

Yesterday LNO asked me what was so bad about calling someone a lying jew, and I had to explain a few things about the historical implications about this expression. As many might be aware of, then the jews have often been made scapegoats of various events, and often they have, as a people and a religion been given the predicate "liars". This was adopted by Hitler in his work "Mein Kampf", where he talked about the "big lie" about how Germanys defeat in the first world war was the fault of the army generals, who was orchestrated by the jews. Later on when the nazi had established themselves in Germany and was in control of power, then the minister of propaganda and culture, Joseph Goebbels, frequently used this phrase in his propaganda against the jews. I hope most of you know where this all lead. (and my apologies - its a long story made short)

When using such phrases one is repeating the anti-Semitic viewpoints, and by doing it over and over again, with out anyone reacting towards such language, then it at some point becomes a legit way of speaking. Thats why I say that we should say stop when we meet it. If we are christians, jews, islamic, atheists or whatever is irrelevant, we all share responsibility not to make the same mistake twice.

Maybe the guy XI tells about in his story would have been much happier if he could just taste pomegranate juice, without being told beforehand what why he should think it tasted like shit. I hope he some day overcomes that barrier and enriching his horizon regarding various fruit flavors.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: MPehrsson ()
Date: January 27, 2011 04:04AM

I will start by saying that I feel your groove Don so please don’t take this too harshly
But… Would we be having this or a similar discussion if best had wrote something about Christians? I think that few Christians would start a new topic called ‘Happy Conqueroring – except if you are Christian :-(‘
or to take Xi’s example with fruits (my favorite must be orange juice, so sweet and full of vitamin C). We all have at some point been called pomegranate juice when we really are more like an apple juice and still we don’t see any topics about that, though I believe that we perhaps someday can expect a fruit manual from Xi.
Today when people hear the word anti-Semitic being whispered they immediately pull out their pitchforks and torches so they can find and burn this racist son of Satan.
In Denmark there have been an incident where Turks burned their own restaurant but by leaving Swastika all over the place they actually got a bunch of skinheads arrested for the crime even thought multiple evidences pointed at the Turks as the criminals, burning their own restaurant as a hate crime towards themselves. I don’t see how this was a clever move from the Turks but it’s just to point out that a lot of people are actually a bit hateful themselves but they think it is their right to justify what Hitler did to a bunch of Jews so they let all their anger at the skinheads, Germans (by that I mean Rippe who is the definition of Germany) and other dudes like best who thinks it’s badass to call people a bunch of lying Jews.
What I mean is that perhaps we should give best a chance. I am sure that he is not the only one of us that has been scorching people and religions when losing a game with a bad winner on the opposing team teasing you and telling the world of his superior skills when reality is that you could easily have beaten him if it was not because your own teammate attacked you.
There is a line between having a bad day and being a racist and if this is one of the first times that best has been showing this kind of behavior, I think that Master as a moderator should tell him that anti-Semitic phrases will not be tolerated and what the consequences will be if he continues.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: DonDK ()
Date: January 27, 2011 04:24AM

well, I can in some respects see your point. However: If it was just a bad day or a unfortunate remark, then I would not have come out here. The problems was the reaction Best had when being confronted with his antisemitism. As I have said in a earlier post, then we all say or do something we later regret, I have done it in this very thread, and I have apologized for that, the main think is how we react when being confronted with it. By keeping it up and don't taking it back, you stand by the remarks, and thereby the content of it - that one before that could have argued was unintended. Had Best reacted positive to the fact that I didnt think his antisemitic behavior wasn't acceptable, then I hadn't written this post, and I would have continued playing games with Best.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Attila ()
Date: January 27, 2011 04:31AM

Well explained Don. Maybe I'm even more sensitive to antisemitism than other forms of racism because I once met an older lady with a number tattooed on her arm. I immediately understood what it was about. I could see the pain in her eyes, even after more than 60 years, without her saying a word, it went straight through me. If I think back to this moment, I can still see those eyes and shivers are running down my spine. I later found out that her entire family was wiped out by the nazis. A young girl in her early teens, literally left allone in the world. It's difficult to imagine a bigger human tragedy than this. And yes, a lot of lifes could have been saved if more people would have stood up against this diabolic regime. BTW I take pride in the fact that the non-jewish citizens of Amsterdam (before WW II 25-30% Jews, today maybe 2-3%), stood up in solidarity with their jewish neighbours, colleagues, friends. You can google for "february strike". Unfortunately this was an exception.

The fact that "best" actually defends antisemtism, condones it, makes it even more serious and despicable, there is not a grain of humour in it.

I can kill my black friends "nigger", my jewish friends "jew", my german friends "nazi", "kraut" or whatever, and they can call me anything in return, and then we'll laugh and have another drink. but this is something different, we're just toying around. We know that at the end of the day we respect each other, and if someone really gets attacked for who or what they are, we stand up for each other. And also, I would never use such words to try to hurt somebody that I may not really like, or in the presence of, for example, the lady aforementioned, but only among friends. But you would be surprised what kind of holocaust jokes Jews themselves can come up with. I wouldn't dare to repeat some of them. It's their way of dealing with this tragedy and I must say, I kind of admire them for it.

Well, I think I made my point. Anyone may like me or not, but at the end of the day I side with the good guys. No matter what color, nationality or religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2011 04:40AM by Attila.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: -RIPPE- ()
Date: January 27, 2011 06:48AM

man, a topic with "Happy Conqueroring – except if you are Christian :-(" would be a lot more fun... actually i cant stand christians. i could hate all day about that topic...

oh and by the way, there are people murdered in industrialized ways in some countriestoday as well, will people learn from their history? i dont think so, its more convenient to play a teamgame of conqueror before having a bigmac menu and reading some forum, where people talk about complex things wikipedia style.
160.000 years mankind so far (wikipedia) and the year 2011 thats exactly how much humans care about history.
its pretty sad we wont be there when some people look at a rusty crossed jesus (swastika, to stay on topic) in a museum and only think about some much more interesting stuff than this old crap (if museums, people or rusty jesuses exist in a few thousand years...).
i would love to see those more interesting stuffs too.

racism is idiotic since all of us are mixes of diffrent tribes that have moved over this planet for so many years. we are all africans when it comes to our roots. racists should be treated exactly like that, like idiots, cuz they really are.

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Attila ()
Date: January 27, 2011 07:22AM

Hey Jesus was a Jew, don't be an antisemite, Rippe :p

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Re: Happy Conqueroring - except if you are jewish :-(
Posted by: Xi ()
Date: January 27, 2011 01:19PM

Woah Woah Woah,

Before we all hold hands and sing Kumbaja around the campfire, lets all admit we are all bigots deep down.

I'm well educated. I'm well travelled. I'm well brought up in a multicultural society.

But when I pass a black man down a dark alley I still feel my wallet to make sure it's safe. When I see an arab on public transport with a backpack I still feel uncomfortable about being blown up. When I see a Jew with a skullcap I still think he's some religious fanatic. When I see a man with a fluorescent jacket on I still think myself superior to the working classes. When I see a man with a expensive suit walking with his umbrella tip tapping the ground I'm still jealous of the posh circles he socialises in.

We are all bigots, believe me.

Even you reading this, though you think of yourself as the exception.

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