My view has always been that there is no higher power, but that we should try to live good honest lives nonetheless. If it turns out that I am wrong, I am sure such a higher power would respect my philosophy and not feel the need to punish me for that. If he were not to respect such a view, then stuff him because he's not worth worshipping anyway.

Religion isn't really good for the world. When you meet an athiest/humanist who has spent their life devoted to helping charity and other people and has never done anything immoral in their life, then you know they are a good person with a strong set of morals. But religion doesn't bring about good morals and good character, it just scares people into following the rules giving the impression of morals: it's all a fake.

There is no proof for the big bang, but there are suggestions that make it a good model. There are also other theories such as the ekpyrotic universe that have some plausibility. But with God, there is a lot to suggest he doesn't exist and nothing to suggest he does, so choosing that belief is slightly irrational. However, we have to understand the reasons people do have to believe. I must admit, sometimes I resent my ability to think on such a high level, as I know if I were simple I wouldn't get into such deep depressing thoughts about life and the pointlessness of my existence so often.

For all you "I'm not religious but I believe a god made the Universe" fencesitters out there, I understand you. People have thought exactly like you from the very beginning of conscienceness. It is human to NEED (not want) to understand everything around us.

If something like thunder is not understood, we call it Thor.
If we fear the sea in our wooden little sailboats, we call it Poseidon so we can appease it.
If a loved one dies or we ask about the nature of existence, what is there to comfort us but the idea of an all-knowing god?
If we find comfort that we are the only animals that will be resurrected and live in a cloudy utopia with no problems, rather than just die like everything else has before us, won't you buy that on your deathbed?

There are three kinds of people in the world in my opinion.

God is a being who designs universes, listens to prayers, forgives sins, wreaks miracles, reads your thoughts, cares about your welfare and raises you from the dead. Simple. Which God is the real God depends on where you are born in the world and who your parents are (Jesus, Yahweh, Allah, Baal, Wotan, Zeus or Lord Krishna), but it is just the case. Case closed.

The Neville Chamberlain "appeasers" who believe science and evolution to be fact but bend over backwards to make sure they don't upset any religious people with their views and by sometimes accepting there might be a god that created the universe. The easiest way to go because you don't have to think or argue with anyone or anything ever.

Finally the Winston Churchill school of thought sees it as a war between supernaturalism on one side and rationality on the other. Just because we want something to have a deeper meaning or a reason does not make it so. Life's origin on a planet took place through a hugely improbable stroke of luck, so improbable that it happens on only one in a billion planets. Yet, given that there are at least a billion billion planets in the universe, even such absurdly low odds as these will yield life on a billion planets. And Earth has to be one of them, because here we are. We cannot, of course, disprove God, just as we can't disprove Thor, fairies or leprechauns.

If God can do anything like create the universe, can he make a stone so heavy that he can't lift it?

I hope I didn't come across as a fencesitter, I am most certainly atheist. My argument was simply that even if God did exist, it should not be bad a bad thing to be atheist. And I also finished off by saying that there are benefits of being religious for those who are.

And of course God couldn't do anything, it is an extremely simple proof by contradiction.

@Paars: I'm copying your response style. Seen it other forums, but defiantly helps with the simplicity of this forum.

@Acro: I am on your page. I slightly disagree with you on a few things. I do not believe that religious people are fake. I know many religious people down in the slums handing out free food, clothes, and other supplies because they believe that all humans are made equal and should be treated as such. At the same time, as you pointed out, many atheist help develop medicines for the poor that help save thousands of lives.

@Hubert: Why would God want to make a stone so heavy he can't lift it?

I understand the point of the question, he can't do it so he isn't almighty, but you could atleast propose it better.

Such as, God killed his only son in order to remove the sins of humanity. Therefore, we can conclude one of two things. God is NOT all powerful, or God is a murderer because he killed his son unjustified.

Christians argue that we killed him. In this circumstance, then God is not all knowing, meaning not all powerful. Same outcome. Point is, Jesus had to die for our sins because the bible claimed that he did. God is not all powerful because he is limited to his word, the bible.

This makes sense if you have studied the trinity, God, Holy Ghost, and Jesus being three separate all powerful entities. Jesus represents the word, which God must follow. That is why he is all powerful, under the trinity perspective.

God built the rock while Jesus can lift it, the Holy Ghost can't. God is almighty.

I don't agree with this, but it is an old question that is kind of boring because every Atheist asks it and every atheist thinks the answer is stupid. As is every argument for Atheism and Christianity.

Also, I am not arguing for god because I believe in god, I am arguing for god because you all are arguing for atheism.

What I was really trying to say is that many religious people do good things for the wrong reasons. It might seem like they're being really kind and unselfish, but maybe subconsciously they're just trying to get into God's good books. Maybe that's a good thing; you might say "Who cares why they do good things, as long as they do good things?"

Note that I'm not saying people literally think "God will like me if I do this", I'm talking on a more general, perhaps subconscious level. And it doesn't apply to all believers, I am sure some would be perfectly moral without religion. I am not at all trying to say they are actually bad people (I hope that wasn't how you interpreted it).

Perhaps the problem is that if you teach your children they should do good things so they get into heaven, then when they decide there is no heaven they no longer feel a need to do good things. Isn't it better if they are taught to do good things just because it's right, and not for any personal motive?

Wow I stop watching the forums for a week and miss all this...

First having moderator power does not make master god

But more importantly...

About the big bang theory, first it doesn’t contradict church teachings the catholic church actually supports it, but if u research it its actually quite interesting while the concept is a generally accepted theory all of the rebuttals have been refined by other concepts none of which are more then hypothesis (dark matter, flat property, etc) so in theory u can choose where u put ur faith in the idea on a big bang or creation you are in essence choosing to place ur belief there. Either way the creation of the world and all life on it is extraordinary i consider it a miracle.

As for acro and u moral actions dilemma u are simply dealing with Kohlberg’s moral development theory and it has very little to deal with if there is a god or believing in God. Your beliefs do not make u a moral person, but ur actions do. To say that every person who believes in God is more moral then one who doesn’t is to look at the world through grime covered glasses.

Kohlberg's stages of moral development don't really concern themselves a great deal with religion; in fact I am talking about something a little different.

Your actions are defined by your thoughts and beliefs.

I most certainly have not said that every person who believes in God is more moral than one who does not, or anything similar, nor would I ever say such a thing.

I was simply exploring religion and its effects on people, I'm not trying to assert any particular conclusion.

jesus wasnt even a human, why should one worship an alien who came back to life after he died? that is just a disgusting rape of human nature. how can an alien speak in this arrogance about "dieing" for our sins if he isnt even human? the whole story is just disgusting.

about "religious motivated helpers", all they do is to help themselves feeling important and to have people that depend on them. n thats it.

of course non religious people are morally the better ones, cuz they have to take over selfresponsibility which automatically leads to a more respectful understanding of the nature of life.

socially its a simple thing too, the many psychological weak persons gather together to form a strong unity to defend themselves against powers that would overwhelm the isolated individual. to achieve this people accept fantasy-constructions and illusions as reality.

all in all, one of humanitys main goal has to be the strenghtening of the individual to get a strong society that is powerful enough to stand on own legs and to get rid of this terrible disatrous concept of religion that divides society and mentally imprisons peoples where they should be free.

rippe i will disregard the blurb about jesus bc it is irrelevant,

About "religious motivated helpers" have u ever met one of these people, a missionary of charity working in India, taking care of the sick people of the slums, One of marivali's people working in Africa with aides victims everyday risking the very real chance they will be infected to. Or one of the countless missionary teams working in Latin America for equality and respect for woman and children.

They are amazing people and their goal is not to feel important, it is quite the opposite, if u speak to these people you would find out it is a humbling experience to identify with the beauty of human nature in such raw circumstances. What motivates these people is to guarantee that all human life is treated with Dignity and respect.

To say a religiously motivated person is less moral then a non-religious motivated person is not true either, For at the highest stage of moral development both the atheist and the religious person have the same motivation, dignity of life.

While I don’t believe that one is more moral then the other I definitely can say that there are more moral religious than atheist in the world today.

And finally the idea that a perfect world is one where every individual has the strength not to need any person to draw strength from or rely on at some point goes against human nature which is communal at its core. People are meant to draw strength from each other. Not go through life as a solitary movement with no effect on or from another.

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Ok well I want to end this debate right here as the question of the existence of God has already been settled.

[www.youtube.com]

And it was all just a big misunderstanding anyway.

[www.youtube.com]

/close thread



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2009 08:42PM by Hubic Hair.

For anyone who wants to continue arguing it's 1 pound for a 5 minute argument but only 8 pounds for a course of ten.

[www.youtube.com]

If God existed, who created God?

obviously you dont understand what i say. i never said i am against any humanitarian act, but to my world, its pretty clear that every act has a reason, what is the profit of acting "humanitarian"? i mean, i had to work for the red cross during my civil service i met people from the thw (a german unit to suport technically in crisis around the world), been to camdodia and am involved in christian sect stuff so i know very well what i am talking about. being humanitarian has its reason on how you grew up and what you experienced mostly during childhood id say, of course i can understand those who suffered themselves but those who didnt are motivated through unconscious personal aims, of which mostly important is to get part of a group (could as well be NRA) or to get social profits from what they do. thats what i exerienced and what it looks like to me especially those missionary people dont see that they cause more damage then help on a long termed view. but even if i were god himself i couldnt change a pro-religion human who doesnt sees the deep ocean and history of lies churches and missionarys swim in. maybe read some over central european history or just start to answer yourself questions, but since you are not interested in the freedom of a critical mind i guess its better for you to stay on the safe side cuz over here there is no security and no answer.

"They are amazing people and their goal is not to feel important, it is quite the opposite, if u speak to these people you would find out it is a humbling experience to identify with the beauty of human nature in such raw circumstances. What motivates these people is to guarantee that all human life is treated with Dignity and respect." -romantification of poverty is disgusting.

as well as you think you are right, i think so too, with the little limitation that i think i could be wrong but i definetely know that you are.

"obviously you dont understand what i say."

Try proper grammar and spelling. It helps.

"so i know very well what i am talking about."

Bullshit. You don't know a damn thing what you are talking about. Never do.

"but even if i were god himself i couldnt change a pro-religion human"

Even if I was god himself, I couldn't convince RIPPE to stop posting bullshit.

Rippe you might want to see a doctor about that, you just got seriously burned.

nah, maybe a set of nails through hands and feet can cool down lil jynx. or some confessional program at his local church, eh i know the truth hurts.
what a weak god jynx would be, one of the millions there are.

if not, this is the solution:

[www.youtube.com]

look at the ads, missionary free for all!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2009 12:30PM by -RIPPE-.

Rippe,

I cannot comprehend how you can say all of the public outreaches of the church are better left undone, regardless of the motives, (and these people motives at least in the 21st century, motives are not to convert but to help) a moral act is inherently good.


As for me romanticizing poverty you again have me misunderstood, maybe this personal story will help, when I was doing missionary work in Jamaica one of my students got a scholarship to go to university in Cuba, but she needed money to buy books. So we gave her the money and stopped by a few weeks later to see her off, now she didn’t have the books and we asked her why and she said her neighbors didn’t have food and they needed the money more then her. I am not speaking fondly of poverty here but the generosity and sacrifice off this girl. And the beauty in humanity that we see through her actions. And again it is an experience in humility because an action like that would not happen in the states or Europe.

Rippe with all respect, I believe this is one of the many topics that we will have to agree to disagree on.

There is no doubt, that religions and especially churches are the cause of more evil and suffering, than they did good to humanity, just take a short look at history. If there ever was a good or caring god (haha) he left us ages ago.

And if one takes a closer look at what is the financial base of so called catholic or evangelic kindergartens, hospitals or whatever, one will see, that by far the largest part is paid by the state (at least in Germany). It is just wearing borrowed plumes.

If a pope speaks about healing the world's poverty, while he is wearing gold, precious furs and armani shoes, managing the riches of his organisation, sorry I can' t take that serious..

Ah and please Scum, can you look at grammar and style? As it is a foreign language for me, I always want to improve. I am sure, your German is much better though.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2009 03:16PM by hallali.