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World Wonders
Posted by: XuuL ()
Date: July 28, 2015 02:53AM

Hi all,

this thread is to discuss your experiences with the new beta version cointaining world wonders: [beta.strategymania.com]

Please add your comments, ideas, critics, etc. here. Please also give us some information about the overall stability of the beta version since it is using a new game server.

Enjoy!
XuuL

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Fenix ()
Date: July 28, 2015 05:45AM

Just tested on multiple 1v1s with Squeegie, results are:

- When producing himeji, it makes 6 troops on the turn it finishes producing. Is this a bug?
- Squeegie had Ujigami + Sun Tzu (20% attack & defense) while I had Himeji and Great Wall (50% attack & defense on 1 land + forts). Squeegie attacked 52 vs 27 in fort with Himeji so it should be 52 (+20%) vs 22 (5 fort) (+50%) = 62 vs 48 = 15. So odds seem to be working correctly now.
- capital at 30k dev +2 produces haiensa at 4 turns, whereas angkor wat at 3 turns. Possible opening strategy for wonders would go like:
turn 1 - troops
turn 2 - start producing angkor wat
turn 5 - player A/B gets angkor wat, losing player switches to haiensa immediately
turn 6 - losing player starts producing Sun Tzu + Ujigami on preferably 30k dev land, takes about 13 turns so expected around turn 16-18

All the games were very short, takes less than 30 turns. game phases went like turn 8-16 (early phase - angkor wat) > turns 16-24 (mid phase - sun tzu/ujigami) > turn 25+ (late phase - himeji). never got to try Temple of Heaven simply because you can't build it till at least turn 20+ where it takes 5 turns on 60k dev land. By then, you're generally starting to troop up for full assault after full advance or trying your best to defend vs enemy who got sun tzu.

- Found a bug where 40k +2 dev land was supportive with 3% chance of rebellion. It had 0 troops, and successfully rebelled but instead of becoming neutral, +1 troop was added to it, still owned by me. It was very weird, but I definitely heard the sound effect happen, and the end result was 1 troop appeared out of nowhere.

- For wonders, the "built by" who should not list land name (often showing how far you've expanded or where your capital is, etc etc)

Also, shouldn't this be stickied? And I think that the link to beta version is too obscure; most people don't read the green news on lobby chat when they log in. Haven't seen much traffic on the beta version yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 05:55AM by Fenix.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Squeegie ()
Date: July 28, 2015 11:06AM

Wonders seem overpowered. Assuming the caps aren't too close together, wonders should be started on turn 2 or 3 every game. And the next round of wonders (20% fighting bonus) will be started very soon after.

In a non-1v1, if all players start WONDERing on turn 2 or 3 (which appears to be best strat), only 2 will get good early-game wonders. And those 2 will be determined by luck.

I recommend that wonders cost 25%-50% more and can only be built by advanced lands. I feel that would increase the number of viable strats with wonders.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Fenix ()
Date: July 28, 2015 01:50PM

Okay, following up on what Squeegie said I think we've found the best strategy to using wonders. Basically, every game is potentially decided on turn 6, 16 and 18+ (himeji). It would go something like this:

turn 1: troops (buy +2) for expanding
turn 2: start building angkor wat for 3 turns while expanding and hope for good ratio's because if you lose angkor wat and forced to build haiensa, you want to have as many lands as possible to develop. you don't farm capital to 40k because angkor wat costs 3 turns whether ur cap is 30k or 40k.
turn 5: if you've built angkor wat, farm capital to 40k. if you've lost and didn't get it, switch over to building haiensa immediately!

turn 6: if you've built angkor wat, advance your capital now and immediately buy dev in adjacent land, preferably minimum 30k. if you were forced to build haiensa, do not worry because hypothetically, you have larger chance to win. What you should immediately do is find two minimum 30k dev land that is influenced and start producing both Sun Tzu + Ujigami IMMEDIATELY! Basically if you get Sun Tzu + Ujigami then even if enemy has Angkor Wat you've won the game. For Angkor Wat you need to buy dev in adjacent land OR hopefully you conquered one nearby and start producing Ujigami to neutralize the Sun Tzu that Haiensa is building. Ideally you should build Sun Tzu because it should also work on neutrals but you're playing catch-up because you've lost 1 turn buying development turn 6 > 7 whereas Haiensa starts producing Sun Tzu/Ujigami at turn 6. If you don't get Ujigami, immediately switch over to Sun Tzu, because Sun Tzu costs 1 turn longer than Ujigami. But it's possible for Angkor Wat to win depending on if you get a rich land to produce wonders earlier or on par with haiensa, resources (+1/+2) can win or lose games because larger farms means slower influence and if the land is not at least content-supportive then you're still producing wonders slower than haiensa. But while this all supports haiensa on paper, reality could be different if the dev lands are not influenced and thus takes 9-10 turns to produce instead. Every turn counts.

here's the production cost for sun tzu/ujigami:
8-9 turns for 30k developed devoted
10-11 turns for 40k developed rebellious
14-15 turns for 30k developed rebellious
8-9 turns for 30k +2 primitive devoted

Formula for wonder production is simply cost. a soldier costs "5". here is an example:
production of a land = (farms + resources) * culture * devotion
=> production of capital in 1st turn = (3+2) * 2 * 2 = 20
=> a capital can build 4 soldiers in 1st turn (cost of a soldier is 5)

This is mostly theory from the games I've played but you can generally follow this strategy and with some common sense, win by turn 30+ at most. Sun Tzu / Ujigami should kick in by turn 14-16 and by turn 20+ you should be warring constantly. I haven't touched on using Himeji yet but I'll post it later when I have more to add.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 02:25PM by Fenix.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Fenix ()
Date: July 29, 2015 12:07AM

So Himeji is kind of like a wild card. I haven't had the chance to use it extensively but from what I've seen so far, it's very difficult to pull off successfully. Ideally you would build it on a frontland, heck it's useless if you build it anywhere else. Also, Haiensa has a much higher chance of making Himeji compared to Angkor Wat.

The problem starts if your frontland sucks, or your enemy has Angkor Wat and applies lots of early pressure not allowing you to produce it safely. Angkor Wat cannot build Haiensa until after turn 14-16 because you're trying to focus on getting Sun Tzu/Ujigami already. If you're Haiensa and managed to get a good frontland, then you can ideally start producing Haiensa on at least a 30k +1 dev frontland at turn 9-10 for 10-11 turns. Be sure to stack troops there once you're approaching mid-phase.

tl;dr Angkor Wat lags behind and relies on early pressure while Haiensa has higher potential to get all 3 wonders and win the game more easily.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2015 12:08AM by Fenix.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Fenix ()
Date: July 29, 2015 04:10AM

Ah shit, mixed it up in my previous post. Corrected:

"The problem starts if your frontland sucks, or your enemy has Angkor Wat and applies lots of early pressure not allowing you to produce it safely. Angkor Wat cannot build Himeji until after turn 14-16 because you're trying to focus on getting Sun Tzu/Ujigami already. If you're Haiensa and managed to get a good frontland, then you can ideally start producing Himeji on at least a 30k +1 dev frontland at turn 9-10 for 10-11 turns. Be sure to stack troops there once you're approaching mid-phase."

Really wish you could edit your posts without a time limit on it :/

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Squeegie ()
Date: July 29, 2015 02:39PM

Fenix types too much.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Fenix ()
Date: August 24, 2015 11:20AM

Since all I touched upon was how to use them before and bugs, after some thought the only suggestion I have atm is pretty much a repeat what Squeegie said before:

- As of right now, Wonders are too game-changing or rather, game-ending. You can literally end games on turns 6 or 16 based on luck (favoring Haiensa) as previously said. I suggest they only be allowed late-game (only allowed to be built on advanced lands and cost much, much, MUCH more).

That way even if you buy advance by turn 12-16, which is ideal, then it does not literally take 2-3 turns to build practically every other wonder except Temple of Heaven which takes 6 turns. That's too cheap for Wonders with such drastic, game-changing effects and will also solve the Angkor Wat vs. Haiensa discrepancy.

- I found the loading time of login screen for Conqueror 1.3.1 to be slower compared to the stable version. Thought might add this since beta's using new server.

- Could I ask for the production cost for wonders XuuL? Based on the formula I can calculate production of a land but not sure of wonders' cost. Would like to find optimal build for producing it asap.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2015 11:23AM by Fenix.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Kutuzov ()
Date: September 02, 2015 06:00AM

Hi,
I dont like the world wonders, they introduce a new concept to something which is otherwise a pretty close to perfect strategy/conquering game. I could imagine a couple of other improvements for a V2 like fleets etc, but "world wonders" is both cliché and not contributing anything to the fun of the game.

XuuL, please dont take this too hard, there is a reason I am hanging out here since ... ten years now?

Regards,

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: -RIPPE- ()
Date: September 03, 2015 02:31AM

I am also exremely critical of world wonders, but its only in the beta you extra have to login for and only on the china map. i can live with that. i coud even live with it being put on the normal game. as long as it stays in china, lol.

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Re: World Wonders
Posted by: Squeegie ()
Date: October 24, 2015 02:45PM

Request: Make wonders optional on all maps (toggle on/off in the map creation screen).

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